It's a bit long, though, so I'll mainly stick to screenies & transcripts, and keep the commentary to a minimum.
It all started when this motherfucker decided to complain about the reboot of The L Word and got into it with user Tygress of Aera:
Click for huge, if you want. These images are for receipts purposes only.
hardcashartisanturtle: I am so ready to waste hours of my life to hate watch the reboot of The L Word. I really didn’t think the writing and production could get any worse but it has and in a very dramatic way, thanks to the all inclusive, self proclaimed queers. From the looks of the title change and the cringe trailer this shitshow is no longer for lesbians, instead we have to watch swinging dicks and “lesbians” professing their undying love to males to appease to the trans cult. What‘a surprise..
(.gif from the show in question)
Originally posted by gaywomen
tygressofaera: Oh bullcrap the show is literally being current in reflecting the Lesbian community as it is now minus the bigots POV. It’s also well reflecting the LGBT+ and the writing is just as good as the older show.
The modern world and the actual living L community isn’t reflected by the section that is anti-trans and anti-community.
hardcashartisanturtle: @tygressofaera I am so deeply concerned for your mental well being if you actually think women fucking men reflects the lesbian community. Go seek the most basic scientific understanding and an extensive psychological evaluation before this LGBTQgjfdjsn+ bullshit deteriorates what is left of your brain cells. Please and thank you, It would be of much help to the rest of the population and the generations to come. :)
tygressofaera: I literally think trans people and their PARTNERS have the exact same rights to their sexual agency and autonomy as the rest of their communities.
I think that the show reflects the actual community and IRL far better and that bigots are very distressed over representation.
And wow TERFs usually go ablelist but that was a stunning dip into it.
theremin-dee: ...are we not gonna talk about how hardCashArtisanTERFle urged you to "seek the most basic scientific understanding"?
Am I the only one who's reading that as, "Do not sully your mind with the advanced scientific understanding of today! Instead, seek the very most basic scientific understanding you can find! Like, third or fourth grade. Ninth grade biology, tops - UNLESS THAT HIGH SCHOOL TEACHES ABOUT TEH FILTHY TRANSES!"
This TERFy idea that somehow, some way, the overwhelming majority of the world's relevant professionals & organizations have all either A. lost their minds in the same way at about the same time, B. been bribed into compliance by, like, the eight rich trans women there are, or C. decided that the end of the Mayan Calendar meant WOO YEAH IT'S TIME TO HATE ON WOMEN BY... ::checks notes:: uhh, "easing the path of transition, which almsot nobody has given two dry shits about until now, except trans folks and their natural predators, the political lesbians."
Like, seriously, trans folks were estimated to be one half of one percent of the population - which means about 1 in every 200 women you've crossed paths with in a bathroom has been a trans woman. If we're so eMiNeNtLy cLoCkAbLe, then which ones were they? Because part of transitioning under the gatekeeper model was the Real Life Test, which for trans women meant living as a woman full-time, including potty breaks, before you got to have bottom surgery.
Christ on a bike, the next place I want to go with this is transphobes aligning with fascists, but that's an essay unto itself and I'ma do that later.
hardcashartisanturtle: @theremin-dee I encouraged her to not only seek a physiological evaluation but to also seek really the most basic knowledge. Not because I want her to continue or lengthen her ignorance but only to encourage what she so obviously lacks, the most basic grasp of science, more importantly, biology. It would take the lowest amount of awareness of reality and a 6th grade bio book to completely contradict and invalidate the foundation of transgenderism and the indoctrinated rhetoric thats constantly being spewed from there shit for brains...
[Note: Here the discussion forks, because it went one way and then Hard Cash Artisan Turtle came back and added another part for a whole other reblog. - D]
theremin-dee: Oh, I know exactly what you meant, and I don't care. I was being short and quippy because I wasn't arguing with you - I was mocking you. You opened up with insults and lies; I just met you where you're at.
You're not a psych professional, and if you were, you'd know A. that you can't refer people based on internet comments, especially when B. the psych (and med, and socio) consensus is that trans folks are who we say we are, and we are neither wrong nor delusional. Below is a link to a massive thread of trans-related citations, both from academic journals and professional org position/policy statements. Sixth grade bio can't invalidate this, and if you want to have an argument about this, you argue with them, not me.
The science of biosex & gender taxonomy is simply more complex than the oversimplifications we give to gradeschoolers, and guess what? We're even working on updating that! Stars above and dead below, imagine trying to argue that Newtonian mechanics are taught in gradeschool and got NASA to the Moon, so therefore Einstein was wrong. XD Your quippy flailing fools nobody, and all the vitriol & indignation in the world can't make you right.
OK. Deep breath. Switching gears.
All that said... if you can accept that sixth grade science is not only incomplete but also fundamentally inaccurate (see TVtropes on "Lies to Children" for a marvelously accessible explanation as to why), and would like to have the more complex and nuanced 21st century understanding of biological sex and gender taxonomy explained to you, then I will be happy to oblige - with zero mocking or downtalk. I promise. I'm a professional educator and hobbyist advocate/activist who has taught parents how to explain this stuff to their kids; I just yell on the internet on the side to keep up on the discourse and de-stress by standing up to transphobia. IOW, you'll get much more patience and nuance out of me if you can accept that you, like everyone else on the planet, don't know everything and always have more to learn. But you will get exactly nowhere with me by asserting that your insults trump my credentials, and you won't even make me feel bad because I've seen firsthand the results of my work. This is my wheelhouse.
Hungry minds that want to learn and can show respect for their teachers, get respect in turn and almost bottomless patience on top. 'Phobes who just want to spew lies and far-right propaganda, get met with the same energy they bring to the table. This is an olive branch: I'm happy to meet you where you're at, either way. But I will meet you exactly where you're at, either way.
[Note: Hard Cash Artisan Turtle ignored this comment (surprise?), then went back and re-reblogged from the previous post, referencing a completely different conversation, with the following addition. - D]
And as for your comment, I can not take it serious for the simplest fact that you actually believe a trans identified biological male in a relationship with a female can and should be considered lesbians or the fact that you think bisexual-lesbians exist, from your exact words, “being a lesbian means different things to different people” and then compared it to being “catholic, or a humanist, or a foodie” whatever that means, proceed to say “you don’t get to tell people what they’re allowed to call themselves” let me make this loud and fucking clear: LESBIANISM DOES NOT EXIST ON A FUCKING SPECTRUM. all I can say is what a shame and an insult to all lesbians. I can’t believe I thought you were worthy enough to even reply back to. I am disgusted.
theremin-dee: Right, so, I just spent most of my spoons helping a friend with a family holiday crisis, so I'll try to be brief.
This lesbian gatekeeping is strongly reminiscent of punk gatekeeping, wherein teenage girls got into bands like Green Day and suddenly "hardcore" punks decided that Green Day et al. "aren't really punk."
Is a music scene totally the same as a sexuality? No, of course not. This analogy doesn't prove anything. But the shape of the discourse is so similar that it just BEGS comparison.
An identity group (lesbians/punks) moved from society's fringe toward the mainstream. The identity's evolving coalescence forked in two separate directions: purists who insisted the identity means one and only one thing, and everyone else who insisted that the identity could keep evolving and become more flexible and inclusive.
The purists noted that new groups they didn't like or identify with (transbians & bisexual lesbians/teenage girls & disaffected corporate workers) moved into the identity as it mainstreamed, and these purists wanted to keep the interlopers out. But the newcomers have their own contributions to make to the identity group, which make sense as a logical outgrowth & extension of the identity, but don't cleanly map onto the preferences & experiences of the purists. So the purists moved to exclude the newcomers, and the newcomers dismissed the purists and their gatekeeping.
Again, this analogy doesn't prove anything. But it's instructive by example: one group is pushing for inclusion and alliance, and the other in its gatekeeping mirrors what William Buckley said of the National Review's mission: "It stands athwart history yelling Stop."
How do you think it's gonna go this time?
genderidentitty: Literally shut the fuck up, you’re all literally the DUMBEST people. Being lesbian is a BIOLOGICAL REALITY and here you idiots calling it an identity like punk music - sexuality is not a CHOICE or something to IDENTIFY into. You either ARE or you ARE NOT.
PLEASE all of you get a clue and quit being homophobes or talk a long walk off a short pier, either is acceptable.
theremin-dee: How about no I won't, and you can't make me? 🙄 If all you're gonna do is scream & stamp your feet & tell us to shut up or go away and die, like... is that all you got? I mean... hatred and bloviation is all you've got left in the tank? ...nice! That puts it on Easy Mode for us transbians. 😀👍
I know the analogy doesn't hold. I said the analogy doesn't hold. I admitted straight-up that it proves nothing. But right now, you sound exactly like those boys in green mohawks and studded denim vests insisting unto death that NO SHUT UP GREEN DAY IS NOT PUNK AND NEVER WILL BE CUZ GREEN DAY IS FOR LITTLE GIRLS WHO WEAR DESIGNER CLOTHES THEIR FKN PARENTS BUY FOR THEM AND THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT PUNK EVEN MEANS REENY-REENY-REEEEEEEEEE!
Like, just, exactly like that. Of course it's not the exact same situation - but you're acting the exact same way.
It's not about the analogy being accurate. It's about the social dynamics being the same, with the exclusivist purists having nothing they can do but throw tantrums about those goddamn inclusivist newcomers. You are not the Lesbian Police, because there are no Lesbian Police. There is just no possible way for exclusivist purism to win this fight. The End.
genderidentitty: (image of Kermit with his arm around another muppet, saying, “IMA KEEP IT REAL WITH U CHIEF!! Ain't nobody readin that shit”)
Anyways, don’t start crying when you get clowned tf out of gay spaces - people outside of tumblr and liberal universities will seldom put up with this “I can redefine your life experience of homophobia bc I’m an individual with feels” nonsense
theremin-dee: Sorry for the delayed reply, I needed to sleep on how I wanted to respond to this. I'm gonna try zooming in on that last part.
First off, I'm not trying to redefine your life experience. I'm saying that you can't veto others' identities. You're the one trying to tell other people what they can and can't call themselves, not me. Like, I feel so weird giving an unironic NO U, but it's accurate, and I just have to scroll up to see receipts, so I guess there's nothing for it?
But secondly... what life-stage do you think I'm in? Because it seems you think I'm a student? And I've been in gay spaces and been totally accepted for who I am. My mom is a lesbian, and a couple weeks ago, after I visited her at work someone asked her if I was a man or a woman. She then introduced that person to trans issues (retired person not really on the internet).
I was getting into Meetup for work reasons, and got a message from one group I joined that looked interesting. I got a message asking if I was a man or a woman. I said I was a trans woman, and the response was, "Oh, good! Welcome! We're lowkey about it because we don't wanna attract dudes, but this is a lesbian kink community."
Turns out one of my colleagues is also the leader of a local PRIDE org, so I asked her for help navigating coming out at work. Not only was she all hugs & helpfulness, everyone at work has been welcoming and accepting.
There are pockets of transphobia, sure. And I get Sir'ed WAY more now than I ever did when presenting as male. But I also get lots of ma'aming, too; and most consistently of all in those gay spaces you seem to think are gonna "clown me tF out." So, uh, Pro Tip: you can't intimidate someone into hiding when they're already out & everything's fine. The world just isn't the way you say it is. [woman shrugging emoji]
hardcashartisanturtle: No, the world isn’t the way you say it is. Actual real life lesbians will never ever willingly date, fuck, or fancy a male, no matter what he calls himself or how feminine he acts and dresses; and to say they can contradicts not only the definition of lesbian but also the lives of so many women. You continue to blabber your mouth off without saying anything of substance or on the bases of reality. I mean, what exactly is your point again?.. Was it that lesbians can be flexible in their sexuality, as you claim, or was it that women who date trans males should and can be considered a lesbian couple, or the fact that you think a genre of music is comparable to sexuality??.. do you not realize how crazy and dumb you sound? Get out of your progressive queer bubble and you’ll see this Inclusive bullshit is ruining the hard work towards liberation that actual homosexual women and men fought tooth and nail for. It’s sad to see for me but I’m sure y’all love it.
theremin-dee: …I mean, who exactly are you trying to convince here? 🤔 The clean, hard lines you want to draw around everything just don’t exist in reality. The world is complicated. And again, you’re professionally missing the point: I know a genre of music can’t be compared to sexuality, but that’s not what I was comparing. In both situations, the dynamics of the discourse were the same, not the thing being argued about: inclusivists on one side who were just doing their thing, and exclusivists on the other who tried to police the community. That is happening in both situations, even though the situations are totally different. I found the meme, btw:
[Image of the following exchange on Tumblr:
billyjojo: "punk died when green day became famous"
nah son punk died when elitist snobs like your sorry ass started treating punk like some sort of secret club with pathetic rules
rhiannonisperfxoxoxo: Green Day, NOFX, Anti-Flag and Bad Religion killed punk.
billyjojo: nah son punk died when elitist snobs like your sorry ass started treating punk like some sort of secret club with pathetic rules
elfangorwasprettyrad: Whats fun is that setting guidelines to punk is really.. Anti punk? Like the heart of the message is going "i do this and fuck who may judge" so elitism literally does not m make sense, if anything the other stuff is more punk cause it goes agaisnt whats mainstream or socially acceptable in the punk community and pisses off elitists
roachpatrol: i would like to point out that all these bands became very popular with teenage girls, especially greenday. i'm pretty sure that's what made asshole 20-something men feel like those bands were "inauthentic', what made those dudes suddenly need to build rules and regulations into their rebellion. because clearly teenage girls don't know anything about being a bunch of pissed-off disaffected victims of society's toxic, exploitative, conformist bullshit.
uswe: (as hashtags) teenage girls are punk as hell, teenage girls are a bunch of dangerous angry monsters who want the world to fucking burn, teenage girls go harder than you Plaid Jacket Pabst McFucko]
(And what would trans women know about having our womanhood under constant attack from people who want to tell us what a “real woman” is, has, and does?)
More concerning, though, is the alliance being fostered between TERFs/Gendercrits/transphobes and the far Right. WoLF allied with the ADF (an SPLC-listed hate group that also advocates for the criminalization of homosexuality, equates homosexuality with pedophilia, and sees homosexuality as an existential threat to society) over an employee being fired for wearing a skirt to work. (source)
Much as I hate linking to a fascin’ rag, here’s Breitbart interviewing Meghan Murphy and uncritically publishing her anti-trans views. Breitbart has also weighed in on a Texas case of a 7-year-old’s social transition - not legal, not medical, literally just haircut, clothes, pronouns, and name. The child’s mother & school are supportive, but the father doesn’t like it, so he’s suing the state to step in and dictate this kid’s wardrobe, haircut, and social treatment. So… which side is upholding the gender binary, policing language, and meddling in affairs that aren’t their business?
This isn’t about “women’s spaces,” legal paperwork, or “lesbian identities.” This is over a binary dress code. Gendercrits say over and over that we should dismantle the gender binary, and embrace gender-nonconformity; yet here they are allying with a hate group explicitly to uphold and enforce the gender binary and exclude gender nonconformity.
Moreover, the Christian Right’s publicly stated strategy for at least the past two years & counting has been to drive a wedge between trans folks and the rest of the LGBTQIA+ community. They say out loud that splitting off the T will set the precedents they need to dismantle the rest of the “alphabet soup.” You are being used as the thin end of a wedge here.
Doesn’t it bother you that when transphobes rail against trans folks, fascists cheer in agreement? If trans folks really reinforced the gender binary, then wouldn’t fascists (who love them some gender stereotypes) be all for normalizing transness to stop the radical feminists (allegedly) pulling in the opposite direction? When actual goddamn Breitbart comes out in support of your views, doesn’t that give you an “are we the baddies” moment? Like, when have you ever known fascists, as a group, to be right on any divisive social issue?
[Note: Hard Cash Artisan Turtle has declined to respond for over a week, at which point I think this discussion is safely over. - D]
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